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there's absolutely no defense for what

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russia is doing considering that ukraine

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gave up its nukes in exchange for

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territorial sovereignty

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okay well let me say something about

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that again first of all i'm not is i i

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want to reiterate i'm not here to defend

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what russia is doing i am here to

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explain it and i think

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explanations are important and he raised

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an important issue

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but there have been intervening events

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which have changed

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some of what you're talking about uh

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first of all the interesting thing

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is that some people think what ended up

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being the straw that broke the camel's

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back and led to the invasion was the

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fact that zielinski after he got back

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from munich meeting with i believe it

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was kamala harris

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before the invasion

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he came back saying that he was now

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considering getting nukes

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and so russia saw this and they you know

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felt like well this we're not going to

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let that happen so first of all he

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signaled

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that maybe they weren't going to follow

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this agreement anymore we might call i'm

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a lawyer but by the way just to

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interrupt are you

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that's a pretty significant allegation

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you're making you you're

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you're clear on your reporting on that

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that linsky said that ukraine is now

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considering getting nuclear weapons yes

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yes and then apparently this was

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what tipped the scales but even before

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that what we have to realize and

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remember

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haven't been told it in the press

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is that the war did not start last week

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the truth is it started in 2014.

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in 2014 there was a coup against

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uh yanukovych i believe was his name and

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poroshenko

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was installed the us was behind this

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actually there's taped

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uh conversations with victoria newland

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who was the us ambassador to ukraine at

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the time where she talks about

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helping to

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install the new government in ukraine

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and to make sure the right people were

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there

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um

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and

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this coup

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uh resulted in a few things one was

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uh and this is true there are there is a

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neo-nazi battalion that's part of the

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official ukrainian military after that

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coup called the azov battalion and in

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fact there's a lot if you watch

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mainstream media you'll sometimes see

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them accidentally you know they'll be

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filming something like you saw that the

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old lady who was being trained in the

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machine gun this was all over tv you

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could see the insignia of the azov

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battalion which it has the two

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lightning bolts that

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uh resemble

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their neo-nazi

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um

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group but sorry sorry the the true

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lightning bolt symbol is a symbol of

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what

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of the this neo-nazi group the as of

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battalion as off battalion because i'm

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not familiar with that yeah and so this

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is yeah and this is the thing no one's

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familiar with it though if you look it

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up on you can find many articles even in

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the mainstream press once in a while

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they've mentioned it

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it's a significant battalion and one and

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when you say battalion you mean it's

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part of the ukrainian military it is it

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is and in fact valencia before the

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invasion had just appointed

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one uh leader from that battalion as uh

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a member of his national security

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council

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and how do we reconcile that with

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zielinski being jewish

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well how do we recognize how do we uh

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reconcile the fact that israel's been

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supporting

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ukraine

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since 2014 and that there was i believe

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two general assembly resolutions in

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response to this

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denouncing

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nazism

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and there were two countries that voted

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against it the us and ukraine uh so look

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uh and israel is always happy to work

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with ultra right-wing

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uh groups despite

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of course all the history so i i don't

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see that as

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uh how do i reconcile it my question is

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how does he reconcile it i can only tell

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you what's happening he he he has to

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reconcile but these groups what is

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important is not only the as off

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battalion but the official government in

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ukraine kiev or kiev as some people

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pronounce it

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uh under poroshenko

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one of the first things they did they

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declared russia the russian language

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that it could not be taught in the

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schools anymore they had to teach okay

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this will flipped out the russian ethnic

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population in the dawn bass okay

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they at some point declare their

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independence because they're freaked out

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by that they're freaked out by this as

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off battalion who openly called for the

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ethnic cleansing of russians

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and there was this huge massacre which

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again people don't talk about in odessa

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i believe it was in 2014 could have been

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in 2015 but it was early on

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where scores of ethnic russians were

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burned alive in this trade union

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building in odessa okay

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so the ethnic russians felt like they

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were under attack and they declared

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independence and then in response to

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them declaring independence

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the government in kiev began attacking

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that region and there has been

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a conflict in armed conflict between

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kiev

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and the don bass region for eight years

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now

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14 000 people have died in that conflict

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eighty percent of them

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are in the dawn bass that is to say yes

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it has been a

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you know there is crossfire going both

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ways but the biggest

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casualties

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are on the

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russian ethnic side in the donbass now

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at some point russia

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which by the way started to absorb

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hundreds of thousands of migrants from

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that region who were fleeing this battle

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um

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they did begin supporting those

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republics but only after those republics

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uh declared independence and only after

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uh that war broke out a war which

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affected russia because again they had

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to absorb this the town of ross uh so

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just to be just to put a fine pin point

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on at all the fighting that we hear

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about in donbass that preceded the

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current war going on and so on you would

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lay the blame for that primarily on

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ukraine not on russia

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yes absolutely

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and you know who spoke really uh

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articulately on this

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to the day he died recently is stephen f

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cohen who was one of the great russian

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experts taught at princeton university

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um

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uh he was a sovietologist he was

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actually good friends with gorbachev he

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was a actually an advisor to gorbachev

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um and one of the things he was trying

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to explain to the day he died was that

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yes i mean you can't

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you cannot say because they always say

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the russian-backed separatists well he

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would always say well yeah but the

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backing came after right

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it wasn't that russia came in and did

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this no this happened

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because the government in kiev was

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reactionary because it was racist

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against ethnic russians

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and as a result people died a war broke

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out

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fourteen thousand people were killed

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and again

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but it is

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russia did

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arm and get involved in the conflict in

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territorial ukraine they did after

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it began but they felt

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that they needed to support these people

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under attack and that does not seem that

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part of it does not seem legitimate to

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me again there's hundreds of thousands

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of migrants coming across the border

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again i try to say look how would we

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feel if there was a government in mexico

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that russia helped

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and it began attacking the

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english-speaking population of mexico

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let's assume they had a region with a

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bunch of english speakers and the

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government didn't like them and the war

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broke out and thousands of people were

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killed mostly civilians

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and a bunch started migrating across the

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border into the u.s hundreds of

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thousands the us would not take this

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lightly they would do something about it

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and russia did and for years they and by

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the way

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there was a resolution that was agreed

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to to deal with this called the minsk

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agreements minsk one and men's two which

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the security council of the united

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nations unanimously approved including

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of course the united states approved it

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which ukraine never abided by

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and

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part of that agreement was that there

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are not to be

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armed groups in the dawn bass

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that ukraine would stop attacking don

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bass and

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that

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the don bass and those two republics

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lugansk and donetsk could move towards

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autonomy a certain level of autonomy i

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mean the borders of ukraine would remain

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but it was agreed to that they would

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have an election and they could vote and